Some thoughts on psychiatric medications and children:
I’ve been reading a lot of articles lately of recent accounts of children dying from taking pharmaceutical psychiatric drugs. In one case the child’s body system shut down due to overdose, in another the child had a heart attack, and in another the child hung himself.
And all I can think is, if you give your child pharmaceutical drugs (which I have done and will most likely do again – although my child is older now and the risks of use are less than with younger children) and the child dies as a result of taking said medications [be it by organ failure, suicide, allergic reaction, whatever], who is responsible for the death? Is it the parent responsible? Is it the doctor that prescribed the medicine responsible? How is this decided?
And does it matter who is responsible? Or is it a mute point once the child is dead?
What if one parent wants to medicate the child and the other doesn’t? Whose opinion wins and makes that final decision and if the final decision is to medicate how does the other parent feel?
And, what if the medicines given to the child are prescribed under the category of ‘off-label’, meaning they are not approved by the FDA for children as young as are receiving them because those meds have never been tested on that population and no one knows the long term results of the medicine on young, developing brains? Then who is responsible if something goes wrong? The doctor that prescribes the meds for off-label use or the parents that accept and utilize the meds for off-label purposes?
I know with Rye we have tried quite a few meds. We have not had great luck so far and have actually had some very scary results from some of them. To the point that right now the only ones I think I’d even be willing to try again are Depakote or Lithium.
But I always wonder…how do you know when the potential benefits of using psychiatric medications outweigh the risks?
I can’t tell you how many stories I have heard of parents using anti-psychotics to calm a child down or reduce mania only to find that after years of using the anti-psychotic for the one reason, when they then try to take the child off the med for whatever reason the child now actually has a permanent thought process disorder or permanent psychosis. That is freaking scary. And these are kids who never had hallucinations or delusions prior to taking medication, they were just hyper or appeared to be manic. And now they have a thought disorder. Or permanent tics. That happens as well. Or man boobs. That can only be corrected with surgery. That happens as well.
And what about polypharmacology? On children. That’s a whole can of worms in and of itself that I honestly believe no one fully understands, especially when you take into account how different each individual’s body chemistry is.
I know for us personally we have used Adderall two different times in Rye’s life (yes, we were stupid enough to do it again after one really bad reaction) and both times the Adderall caused mania and psychosis. The first time at 6 years old, when the Adderall was combined with Risperdal, it also caused a Grand Mal seizure. The second time this manic/psychotic reaction to Adderall happened, at age 12, it took us months to get him out of the psychosis. It was really scary. And had I not been very cynical of the meds and always questioning our psychiatrist (which don’t you know he just loves – thank god the man is very expereinced, patient and flexible), we probably would have thought Rye needed to be on anti-psychotics forever, which he does not. The psychosis did go away. Both times.
I’ll tell you, I don’t have any answers but I do know that it’s all scary. I would never forgive myself if my child died from taking a psychiatric medicine I gave him. That said, I know I also have to be careful that he doesn’t die from the symptoms of his illness either, which makes it a delicate balancing act.
It’s tough. These are tough decisions to make, there’s no doubt about it. And I can see why parents choose all different routes. Medicating is stressful. Not medicating is stressful.
None of it is easy.
77 Comments
i believe you that there are definitely concerns. every time i hear a horror story involving medication it makes me question what we’re doing with Taz. but again, what’s the right answer? what should we be doing? what’s the alternative? everyone with bipolar says it’s miserable to live with unmedicated. most people with bipolar thank God there is medication to treat it or they may have committed suicide a long time ago. or turn to drugs to self-medicate.
sometimes i wonder if we’re better off JUST using therapeutic intervention to deal with Taz’s symptoms, instead of medication. but then we have a really bad day, and i see how disorganized he is, and how he really can’t function when he’s like that. he can’t learn, he can’t sleep, he is anxious and scared and confused. he is violent and i’m sure he just feels awful inside. i don’t want him ever to think he’s a bad kid. or that everyone hates him. he asked me the other day why i hate him? this was after being very aggressive. i know i never said anything as harsh as i hate him but he picked up on the feeling that i was frustrated and annoyed. i don’t want that to effect his self-esteem.
so, like you said, there’s a balance. and i don’t know what else to do. i can’t hold my son back developmentally, emotionally, socially, and even physically (from lack of sleep) by not giving him medication that might help. but like you said, i don’t know what it will do to him in the future. so far there haven’t been any allergic reactions. i’m trying to decrease the risperdal and get rid of it. my husband doesn’t agree.
man! you make me so nervous when you right stuff like this!
It makes me nervous too.
Check out Stephany’s post today http://bipolarsoupkitchen-stephany.blogspot.com/2010/04/bbc-americas-medicated-kids-programs.html
The BBC series is about America’s fascination with medicating their kids. You have to click on the red link to get all 7 segments.
And then there’s the constant threat of CPS kidnapping the child to imprison and collect the Federal Funding for “Special Needs”.
We also need to be aware that if you child DOES dies from the medication that the system may very well charge YOU with murder.
Witness the Rebecca Riley case-
http://familyrights.us/info/doping_the_kids.html
Leonard Henderson, co-founder
American Family Rights Association
http://familyrights.us
“Until Every Child Comes Home” ©
“The Voice of America’s Families” ©
Exactly, the parents of Rebecca Riley are in PRISON, the 2 other children in foster care and Rebecca is dead. In the meantime, the TUFTS psychiatrist has been given back her medical license and is practicing child psych care in a state-funded setting. Want HER as your child’s doctor? I wouldn’t! She only testified under immunity.
The problem here is that the medical profession won’t tell you why so many kids are messed up. They just keep shoving more drugs at you that don’t address the cause of the problem.
We learned in 1999 that all of these problems, Autism, Asperger’s, ADD, etc are caused by mercury and aluminum in the vaccines. But, since the doctors shot this stuff into our kids, they still refuse to admit it.
I have my son partially cured of severe autism by removing the mercury from his brain with chelation. It’s safe, cheap and painless, despite what the dishonest doctors tell you.
If anyone wants more info, bettwice33@juno.com . I’m just a father who wants to share this knowledge, not some jerk looking for a quick buck. Chelation works and it’s the only real solution. We have to take the mercury out that the doctors put in. It’s still in the shots and they lie about that too.
Let’s take pause for a moment and ask some of the common sense questions.
Before this monumental drugging invasion took place over the past few decades, were children dieing or being left disabled in vast numbers from these some how new revelation diseases that are now common place and thrown at parents as ingrained science based fact (along with the fear mongering and threats that your child will die if you don’t follow their expert advice and medicate).
I believe you will find the answer to be unequivocally “NO”
The facts, history, and logic behind the fear and disease mongering campaigns just don’t hold up under outcome based scrutiny and results.
The reality is that child mental illness/disorders that required medical intervention before the 1980’s was an extremely rare occurrence.
So maybe all those parents struggling to come to grips with this newly created crisis should be asking what has really changed.
I believe you will find if you take a truly honest and unemotional approach to this quest; that the only factors that have really changed are the creation of disease, the creation of drugs, the creation of a need, and the intense marketing of each.
The new medical (quick fix) drugging modality can not claim an substantial improvements, positive outcomes over any long term analysis, or sustainable results because they do not exist.
The question with the vast amounts of information available to every parent today should not be whether to medicate their child with a dangerous mind and physically altering drug or not; but how was I duped into believing and acting upon this deeply flawed and dangerous marketing myth in the first place.
It appears as parents your going to have the guilt police knocking at your consequence with either choice correct.
So why would you not follow the path which errors on the side of caution, and give a child the simple gifts of all the ages; “Guidance” “a living example” “limits” and most of all “TIME”.
Meg, I couldn’t agree more: it’s scary. Every which way we turn, it’s scary. The illness is scary, the treatments are scary, and like icing on the cake we get judged no matter which decisions we make.
We feel incredibly blessed to work with a brilliant, caring, med-conservative pediatric psychiatrist. But even so, and as much as I trust her, it’s ultimately all on us, Carter’s parents. I routinely feel that I must make decisions that I’m not qualified to make. Better research could change so many, many things for families of children with emotional and behavioral challenges, but we all know the mess that is mental health research for children.
Ultimately, we can never know 100% whether we’re doing the right or the wrong things. That’s one of the most painful realities of it all.
While stimulant and type medications may be of great benefit to a portion of the populace, psychotropic medications should never, never, ever be administered to children without medical history. Medical background is required ALONGSIDE stringent cardiac testing to ensure that no hidden structural or rhythm defect is present.
STAN,
i don’t know who you’ve been talking to but i’m a parent of a child with bipolar disorder on medication and i haven’t been duped. and no professional threatened me by saying my son would die without it. in fact, every professional i talked with was conservative and cautious with starting medication.
believe it or not, but parents aren’t just hapless idiots without a clue in the world about our children looking for someone to make kids perfect. most of us are extremely intelligent individuals who care immensely about some big concerns we see in our children. most of us spend hours pouring over research and books in attempt to make life better for our kids.
and i’m not talking about tantrums here and there. or testing limits. or “spirited-ness”.
these concerns aren’t normal child stuff. unless you think it’s normal for children to make death threats. to break toys, windows, walls. to try to hurt themselves and others. to have such anxiety that they are afraid of everything. do you think it’s okay that a child is unable to make friends because they don’t understand social expressions and they lack impulse control and lash out at peers? but they also notice they are different, they always seem to be in trouble but don’t know why, and so their self esteem decreases each passing day. does any of this sound like a happy childhood to you?
well, maybe like most critics, you will never understand until it happens to you. therefore this comment is probably pointless.
My daughter is a poster child of the Pediatric Bipolar Child dx gone wrong, the 4000% increase in drugging and dx’ing of children in the last decade should be telling to all of you.
Don’t forget your children grow up to become adults addicted to prescribed drugs, they will find their way, hopefully later as adults, take a look at Furious Seasons, and read the Robert Whitaker book, page by page, evidence page by evidence page and then wonder if you were DUPED.
It’s not just duped, your children and you are marketing targets, if anyone ever took the time to seriously read the fine print and the money trails, the lawsuits and skewed data stories, then you will find yourself making an EDUCATED DECISION.
THAT, with the knowledge known now compared to 10 years ago, ensures that the educated decision has been made, and the choice and repercussion of the choice even WORSE.
PS–good luck, you’ll need it.
I would have to say I am a huge skeptic of using medications and I think many parents are too quick to use medications (I myself have done this). I do, however, think there are many success stories of children and teens on medication and many kids and teens that would have been institutionalized or jailed in previous days are now able to live happy, healthy lives due to psychiatric medications. And there are horror stories as well, of course. One needs to be careful, look at all sides of the coin, read about the histories and research done on the medications they use and talk to adults who were medicated as children/teens and see how they feel, etc. and be open to all possibilities. And obviously not all parents do this and that is the scary thing. But clearly some children are helped by these medications. It is never a one size fits all for anything. For us we are looking to start Depakote or Lithium soon and my son is actually looking forward to it. He wants some relief.
Oh angry attacking Taz mom that openly accepts her child is Bipolar @ 4 years old.
Since you have chosen to attack my comment and myself personally. I will respond directly in kind.
Now having lived through the lie personally, and having worked with more kids and adults that you might even imagine with supposed mental disease: I must beckon to say mental illness in children is actually an extremely rare occurrence usually associated with trauma/abuse, some form of actual physical/pathological illness, or may I be so bold to question some causation coming from some form of poor and over reaching parenting skills.
You have bought the bill of goods, hook, line, and sinker alright. Did you get your research at a CABF Seminar glossing over some J. Biederman drug company sponsored Hypothesis, or is it just from your Psychiatrist office?
Have you ever inquired your doctor about possible conflicts of interest including numerous ways the doctor may be profiteering directly from the pharmaceutical industry that does in real life terms skew both their judgment, treatment methods, and patient practice.
Thank goodness you, like your child’s doctor some day you can say it was the child’s manifest destiny and the awful disease as a crowning excuse for a life permanently interrupted.
Somewhere down this mythical road you have chosen to follow a child has very high odds of facing a discouraging and tragic outcome with both a destroyed mind and body.
You do realize Toddler Bipolar is a brand new created phenomenon that doesn’t even follow the far reaching DSM guidelines. You also have realized none of the drugs your child is consuming are tested or approved in 4 year old children.
So in essence your child is a marketing Ginny pig for a disease that did not exist just a few short years ago. Haven’t you asked or questioned why there were no bipolar toddlers before this grand revelation and discovery?
It’s really slick shceme that way. You personally won’t have to internalize the actual guilt for the damage your actions may cause.
I know you don’t get it, and I’m not here to save you, I’m not here to make you get it. I provided an informed opinion that has substantial research, science, and real life results to back it up. I personally don’t give a flying turtle if you like what I have to say.
Please show us all here the “long term” results and studies your drugging modality has to offer as insight? You can’t provide this important information because medicine hasn’t taken the time or care to thoroughly research what their doing before they cause generations of catastrophe inflicted upon the innocent children of this nation.
Do what you wish, it’s not like the child gets to choice correct. Children don’t get the luxury of informed consent after all.
Taz, I am speaking from the perspective of someone with a learning disability who has many similar issues to people with Asperger Syndrome. Also, due to horrific side effects from psych meds that caused a hearing loss and worsened my LD issues, I have slowly tapered off of them.
Anyway, in reading your blog and many others similar to it, I wonder how many kids diagnosed with Bipolar have been misdiagnosed when actually they have autism/LD issues and the sensory stuff that comes with it.
I admit there were a few pieces of the puzzle that didn’t quite neatly fit. But I am wondering if the other issues were dealt with at a young age by an occupational therapist and other types of therapy, even if there were remaining bipolar issues, there wouldn’t be a need for medication. Perhaps it would still be necessary but not nearly as much.
By the way, reading facial expressions is not helped by medication. You have to learn how to use surrounding clues just like someone with dyslexia does while reading a book.
AA
I forgot to mention that psych meds greatly worsened whatever sensory issues I had.
Sorry for all my comments as I am procrastinating on doing unpleasant tasks:)
In thinking more about the situation, I was wondering Meg and Taz’s mom, if you have tried high EPA fish oil capsules for your kids’ conditions? I am talking about something like Omega Brites. You can also purchase Isodura (sp?) at your local CVS pharmacy which seems quite similar.
You want to do a google search of bipolar and high EPA fish oil capsules to see what you come up with.
As one who has had to resort to alternative stuff to deal with med withdrawal issues, the problem is that you’re pretty much on your own as alternative folks are generally pretty clueless also.
So it really is trial and error just like with meds. And you have to give it some time. By the way, I am talking to myself:) as I am very impatient.
But in light of knowing what these drugs can do down the road, it might be worth your while to investigate the fish oil option. Also, since meds don’t usually work right away Meg, that is another reason investigating high EPA fish oil capsules might be a viable option.
We have used fish oil for months now. The main issue my son is having is he gets so wound up/hyper/manic that he can’t calm down at all even when he wants to calm down. And it’s really bothering him. He can see that not everyone else is talking 1000 miles an hour and going 1000 miles per hour and laughing maniacally yet he can’t calm down no matter what he tries. And his friends see it in him too now which is hard for him. They can see he has no control over it. Also, he is regularly having very gory dreams that are freaking him out. Very violent, very scary. And he wants some relief from this.
AA: I’d love it if you’d write a guest post about your history and experience. I appreciate your insight about the meds worsening some issues. I believe this to be true but for us right now we have to pick our poison, if you will. It’s not easy.
Stan,
actually my son’s diagnosis does come from trauma/abuse and pathological illness. His biological family is riddled with schizophrenia. He had three foster placements (one not so kind) before he came to us, to live permanently (he’s adopted). after working for more than a year to form a solid attachment (which we now have), he still presents very clear symptoms of bipolar. if childhood mental illness is a rare occurrence, we are that rarity.
i did not mean to attack you personally. i don’t even know who you are. sometimes things written in black and white are translated quite differently by the reader than the writer. i understand there are strong advocates both for and against medicating kids. but when the two sides speak so harshly of the other, it makes parents very confused in making already tough decisions about their child’s health care. and like you said, we are the ones who have to answer for it. whether it saved their lives or destroyed them.
i have bipolar disorder, which started my senior year of high school. i have taken lamictal for the last 6 years and i thank God every day it exists. it saved my life. i guess i feel somewhat competent in choosing treatment for my child (until he can choose for himself) because i know i wouldn’t want to live without my medication. even if taking medication was to shorten my life somehow, i would choose it over living unstable without it. bipolar sucks. i just want the best life for my child.
AA,
thanks for the feedback. my son has been in therapy (OT, speech, play therapy, etc) since he was a year old. my mom is a pediatric OT, i have a ton of books on sensory processing. it’s something i use every day in parenting Taz. i’ve worked for years in the school system with special ed kids. especially kids with autism. i know it when i see it. Taz doesn’t have it but he has some traits (just not enough to qualify for the dx). i pay very close attention to Taz. i’ve learned to read him very well. i can tell when a certain behavior is a result of sensory needs, mood issues, and just being 4. i am in the process of decreasing some of his meds to see how much we can do using therapeutic techniques. we also have an in-home psychiatric service coming to work with us for parenting techniques. this is our second in-home program. the first of which admitted they couldn’t help us and that we needed psychiatric help.
so, to the bipolar critics out there…my question is, if a child is showing all of the symptoms of bipolar disorder, but you don’t believe many kids have bipolar disorder or that they should be medicated. then what do you call it? and what do you do about it? if i did not give my son medication he would be having lengthy rages daily, he would perpetually be attacking his sister dangerously, he would not be sleeping consistently, he would be depressed, and he would be manic. he would not be able to function but for a few days every month (since that was what he was like before meds). what should i be doing?
and i’m serious about this question. because it’s the one thing no one has been able to tell me. i’ve tried every parenting technique. i’ve been to counselors. i’ve read a million books. i’ve tried the explosive child theory. i’ve given guidance, limits, and role models. i’ve been to specialty conferences and classes on adoption, trauma, behavior, ODD, ADHD, everything. i’ve tried what each expert recommended. i’ve done every darn thing i could think of and that others have told me. what else is there?
i know someone said time. but how long do we wait? how long are we supposed to live like this? in a state of chaos every day? to have our daughter and our dog terrified and anxious all day? there are consequences for everyone in the family by not actively treating these symptoms. it seems to me like everyone says don’t do this, don’t do that, but then offers very little in the way of what we should do. (p.s. we did try fish oil and didn’t notice a difference. we also ruled out many medical conditions as well)
Not to labor this conversation much further.
Though I will clarify schizophrenia is not a pathological disease. In fact not a single DSM diagnosis has any proved pathological determination or cause.
Schizophrenia much like bipolar are diagnosed solely on meeting fluctuating criteria (as versions of the DSM change, so does the criteria requirements) and by observed, communicated, and behavioral symptoms.
This is why it’s quite common to see a child or adult go through constantly changing and multiple diagnosis throughout their life.
In actuality is not uncommon to see a patient receive very different diagnostic labels from many different doctors, even as they are manifesting the exact same symptoms in each case.
Basically this is because the criteria are left up to subjective interpretation which in scientific fact does is not even come close to objective test/measures for say pathological diseases like diabetes, cancer, and alike. (these often used correlations between mental health disorders and true pathological diseases leads to confusing misrepresentations and some false/misleading informational campaigns by the pharmaceutical industry and their conflicted heavily sponsored fronts as in so called advocate groups)
From what I can surmise from a glance at your blog, you have adopted child that was born drug addicted, has strongly suspected developmental disability or related physical damage, and has been in hostel/abusive/neglectful living environments most of the child’s very short life to date.
I’m just trying to grasp how drugging a child at four years old with numbing anti-psychotics is in anyway helping this child work through some obvious monumental obstacles and effecting emotional issues?
Now if these drugs are being used as simply behavioral control mechanisms, then I personally would be strongly questioning risk/benefit equations. Especially considering we today do not have the studies or long term outcome results firmly established related to use of Pychotropic drugs in toddlers and developing children.
We do know there are evidenced consequences and demonstrative risk associated with long term use in adults. We also are beginning to grasp that these risk outcomes for negative horrific side effects and results are much higher in children.
You have yourself stated in your comment that you personally are willing to make those trade offs in health risk for “stability”. I have actually no problem in you making those type of informed decisions made for yourself (even though I personally strongly disagree that drugs are the answer or helpful over the long haul with the overwhelming and vast majority of those confronted with coined emotional disorders).
But in children when the science is so suspect, these diagnosis are so new, and are still being hotly debated even among the so called experts.
I would hope the predominate course of actions would always be by taking the safest and most conservative routes/interventions as long term outcomes without doubt are a much larger concern when relating to childhood disorders.
So now I must ask where is this imaginary line going to be drawn between risk and benefit when it relates to children? I guess you have to answer that question for yourself.
I will not go into my views related to label identification and how that can play a large role in skewing perceptions in this comment today.
Taz’s Mama, would you please email me? Link is on my blog. Thanks!
one correction. not sure if it makes any difference. my son was not in a hostile/abusive/neglectful living arrangement most of his life. there was only a 2 month period where there was alleged emotional neglect and possible minor abuse. but the rest of the complications you are referring to are accurate.
but for us, explaining away behavior as being attachment related or developmental was just not cutting it anymore. the brain is an extremely complex organism. who knows what’s really going in any case of behavior steering from the norm. adding in so many risk factors, and basically a royally f-ed up early childhood, certainly confuses things even more.
i don’t know where the line is between risk and benefit. i just know that i have to choose something. something to make life easier for him. at least make an attempt for things to be better for him. it’s the least i can do. i won’t be able to save him from his past. the damage has been done already. he will always have anxiety and fear regardless of having bipolar or not. it’s not like if i do nothing he would be fine. he’ll never be fine. so i have to try, as hard as i can, to get the dx right. to find the best intervention for him. to work hard every day to make his life as normal as it can be. i just want him to have a childhood. i don’t want him to be raging all day. i don’t want him to look back and remember being in trouble all the time. or feeling bad about himself. or hurting his sister when he’s out of control and really loves her. so i have to try to do what’s right and what might give him some peace.
my point in all of this is to point out that not all parents are idiots being manipulated by TV commercials. and i resent being viewed that way. and in fact, bipolar people tend to have higher IQ’s and more creative talents. just something i throw at people who doubt me. (kidding. just trying to cut the tension with some bipolar humor.)
anyway. i guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
“what should i be doing?” unlike drugs, non-drug behavioral interventions take TIME, they can honestly be measured in years and decades, verses days and months.
Though, not personally knowing your son, I can only suspect he has quite a large dose of anger to express considering the challenges he has been presented with even before his birth.
Then you add in delayed and/or very real physical developmental disability factors and you/he have a real full plate in-which there are no easy or short cut fixes available.
As for this “BIPOLAR” label, what criteria are you using exactly?
We know the criteria for this label in the DSM is not in fact applicable to children. So what a bipolar child entails is a whole new creation that some group of conflicted, sponsored, vested, and heavily influenced Doctors that are indirectly/directly answering to very powerful pharmaceutical corporate interest.
In sane no bull speak, there is huge money and power to be had in new disease mongering.
In closing, TIME is measured in patience and fortitude. I have learned working with severe and not so severe developmentally disabled individuals that our personal expectations should play as small an influencing role as possible.
We need meet each person exactly where they are at, then accept that as valid with loving respect and dignity, then we formulate a mutual plan, and allow progress to happen at that persons pace and capabilities with never ending encouragement and in faith (not in some miracle cure, but that progress is possible, and defining moments and limitations are only set in the shifting sands of change itself).
Improvement must be truly measured in that persons individual quality and function of life in the end.
The only thing anyone receives for treatment via psychiatrists are DRUGS. Knowing that much, then assume that is what your child will end up on as a result of entering the psychiatric world, my daughter has been confirmed after a decade an seen by dozens of doctors to be wrongly diagnosed, the impairment to her body and brain and loss of her young teen life as she knew it is the price she is now paying for the pushing of the childhood bipolar paradigm by pharma and the psychiatrists paid to research and promote specific drugs.
The drugs are, simply put, chemical restraints. They do not work, unless you want a child who does not feel or have emotions any longer, rages can be induced as well as psychosis by the very drugs (even Benedryl)that claim to help the “problem”.
Behavior intervention medication free is labor intenstive, time consuming but most of all SAFE for your child’s body and growing brain.
Once the damage is done it is FOREVER.
As a parent who has seen a child fall prey to the drugs in a severe damaged and ruined life—I can only say, I am now educated with an education that came at my daughter’s expense, all the while the children in America are younger and younger on antipsychotics, the drugs that can reduce lifespan by 20 years, cause hearts to explode, cardiac arrest, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, lactation, weight loss, high blood pressure, weight gain, ocular dysfunction, brain damage, cognitive loss, permanent tics and movement disorders, and so much more.
There are behavior intervention trainers who work in parents homes, that do not offer drugs who do offer the child a chance at choices, and learning how to control self- it is time consuming, and parents must take it seriously for it to work.
Nothing will change what happened to my daughter now, but what I can do is tell people to watch out, you have seriously NO idea how this drugging of the child will turn out.
The child becomes there own study, and the parents hope the outcome is good, but hope doesn’t cut it when chemicals flow through the body that were not designed for children or their growing brains.
how do you explain the many people who live happy and successful lives as a result of medication? i am a medicated bipolar adult and i don’t feel like i’ve been chemically restrained. i feel like i’m the person i was meant to be. the person who was trapped inside a confusing and horrifying illness and the medication is what set me free. i do not experience cognitive dulling or loss of emotion with my medication.
and then what about my son? since being on medication he has stopped raging. he is more organized. he is directable. he is able to make sound choices based on information instead of on impulse (most of the time). no doubt he’s loved us the whole time but on medication he is able to freely express it. he can implement restraint in being near his sister. he can express his love to her as well.
he is not perfect. he is not recovered or cured. but we see great improvement. we are able to move forward and implement therapeutic techniques with the leftover symptoms not treated by medication.
i understand that there can be a variety of side-effects that can be dangerous for children. but, radiation and chemo therapy are dangerous drugs with serious side effects yet we use them to save children’s lives. what if some of these drugs are saving lives? how can i withhold that from my son?
Taz’s Mama wrote:
“…my question is, …what should i be doing?..”
You’ll perhaps forgive me for “playing Columbo” (ie, apparently asking the dumbest of questions, with no clear purpose), but I find that I look at the world in rather different way to most! In riposte to your first question, I have no idea what bipolar is, other than it being a collection of behaviours, which, when exhibited together are claimed to be symptomatic of “a disorder”. Presumably, if one had one, two or three of those symptoms go away, then the child would no longer be bipolar? Much like all other mental illnesses, in fact.
What is your son angry about? He is angry about something – that’s not incoherent rage: there’s something at the bottom of it. Generally speaking (and only in my experience, I should point out), anger is the flipside of fear – they’re both possible reactions to the same stimuli. Ergo, Taz is (extremely), fearful of something. Possibly.
Anyway, the thing that Taz may be angry about may be trivial (from an outside perspective), and he may recognize it as such, when he verbalizes it. But subjectively, right now, it’s very real, and it’s very big, judging by what you’ve written.
I’d concentrate on trying to understand what’s at the bottom of this fear/anger, if I were you. It may have been something that happened while he was in that abusive environment, or it may have been the environment itself, or it may be something completely different. Only Taz knows.
Anyway, I’m not qualified to claim to be expert in this area, so I’ll STFU, now.
Matt
Taz’s Mama wrote:
“how do you explain the many people who live happy and successful lives as a result of medication?..”
[shrug] SSRIs seem to operate almost exclusively on the basis of the placebo effect (and that’s based on the trials the companies have felt inclined to publish, which is by no means all of them). I wouldn’t be surprised to find that these other psychoactive drugs are similar, in that way. One could probably get more or less the same result with a pack of M&Ms, if the patient accepted the suggestion that they were therapeutic.
Matt
There you going doing exactly what I wrote about in a previous comment.
“i understand that there can be a variety of side-effects that can be dangerous for children. but, radiation and chemo therapy are dangerous drugs with serious side effects yet we use them to save children’s lives.”
Using objective pathogenic disease and treatment, then some how correlating it to subjective based mental health disorders.
If you are going to use these types of misleading and false analogies. Then you would first have to prove exactly what your treating. Since there are no proven pathogenic cause for any DSM mental health disorder, your comparison lacks the validity/truth to be used as an argument for a drugging treatment modality related to mental health conditions.
I just wanted to point out and highlight this glaring manipulative tactic used over and over again by those so called mental health advocacy groups in the defense of dangerous drugging in relation to both children and adults with emotional disorders.
Since you have admitted in a prior comment you do not buy into the “we must medicate or they will die” propaganda; I would appreciate you not coming back with that as a defense for drugging.
In factual reality in many pathogenic diseases the risk/benefit ratio is many times truly a life or death scenario. This does not hold true, apply, or is a valid claim when referring to mental health disorders.
I can almost hear those heart wrenching stories about Uncle Bob, and aunt Molly committing suicide. If they would have only had proper treatment and intervention.
Yet, the reality with the drug modality is the fact that suicide rates have changed very little since the advent and intervention drug modality has cornered the market place.
Add in the fact (please read those drug labels) that the very drugs used to treat depression and the associated dangers of suicidal behavior can actual increase the risk which is inherent a risk factor; as is the side effect profile with many other related and caused mental health behavioral markers such as psychosis.
“SSRI’s work mainly like a placebo” seriously? How much study have you put into brain chemistry? I’m just curious.
http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2009/03/even_more_evidence_of_placebo_effect_in_teen_depression_trials.html
Even More Evidence Of Placebo Effect In Teen Depression Trials
http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2009/02/study_on_suicide_and_ssri_use_bad_for_kids_good_for_adults.html
Study On Suicide And SSRI Use: Bad For Kids, Good For Adults
What about you, Devan? where’s your study done on brain chemistry? post the link.
Antidepressants shown worthless for most consumers
http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/659/1/
How much reading and research have you done lately Devon? Would you or any others here promoting the drugging of children like to share any vested interest you and others may have related to the pharmaceutical industry including membership or promotional duties for any drug company sponsored advocacy organization just for the sake of full disclosure.
Full Disclosure: I Stan am not affiliated or do I financially or professionally profit in any way from my blog, writings, and views related to mental health issues.
I am not directly attached to or am I a member of any specific group or religious organization affiliated with any of my views or actions related to mental health issues.
Go ahead and moderate my comments, “Meg”, run for the hills, where you cannot hide.
sounds like reactive attachment disorder. there are plenty of specilaized therapies for that especially Theraplay. drugginga 4 year old is just sick and wrong
Devon Armstrong wrote:
““SSRI’s work mainly like a placebo” seriously? How much study have you put into brain chemistry? I’m just curious”
No you’re not – you’re defending a position (by questioning the validity of mine – that’s a tedious construction). If you’re going to do that, then be honest about it.
In answer to your question, I’ve been studying the way that clinical trials are used to market drugs (amongst other things), for several years. Of the published trials (and companies are very selective about the trials that get published), placebo is generally favourably comparable to the drug it’s tested against, in terms of efficacy; sometimes the placebo out-performs the drug. Aside from that generalized observation, I suggest you do your own research.
And, whatever you do, don’t try to out-think me.
Matt
I will try to respond to all the comments in one post. Before I respond to various posts, you all might want to look at this article I found on Psych Central.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/04/21/are-kids-overprescribed-psychiatric-medications/12996.html
http://tinyurl.com/2dk28jx
One of the main points is the long term impact is unknown which I will get to shortly.
To the various points that were raised
Meg, thank you for your offer to allow me to write a guest column on my experiences. Unfortunately, right now, is not a good time but I will definitely do it at some point.
Regarding fish oil, apparently what has the best chance of working for bipolar are ones that have a high EPA to DHA ratio. Most do not.
Taz’s Mom – Interesting comments that you and your don’t feel drugged or cognitively dulled. I said the same thing when I was on my full compliment of meds only to realize how wrong I was.
Even people who are pro psych meds have felt cognitively dulled.
Please understand that I am not saying you’re lying or anything like that but I wanted to share those experiences.
You wanted answers on how to deal with your son’s problems and what alternatives we would suggest.
I certainly understand your position on drugs and it sounds like you have some tough situations.
But keep in mind, they do poop out and the long consequences according to the article are unknown. Actually, I think they are known more than any professional will admit but that is another post.
And even if your son isn’t suffering side effects right now, that can change in a heartbeat.
What I would be doing is putting your son on a trial of high EPA fish oil as I previously mentioned.
I would also intensely research bipolar alternatives. Even though there aren’t any studies, many people with bipolar disorder have managed to succeed without meds. Find them and pick their brain.
I had posted some links but my message was rejected due to it being too spammy. Funny, I wasn’t posting commercial links.
By the way, you mentioned cancer treatments. While I believe according to the studies, they are most effective with childhood cancers, they don’t work for much else.
A local oncologist was quoted in the local paper that 4 out of 5 patients that he sees will die within a few years. And this was a guy with a great reputation.
I would also listen to Matt about working on the source of your son’s anger instead of being afraid of it. I know, you can’t do that when he is lashing out.
But in a comparable situation, there are therapists who are working with schizophrenics voices instead of being afraid of them. That is what you need to do with the anger.
And as far as bipolar meds being lifesaving, according to the link to the article I posted initially, they don’t seem to be long term.
Finally, I would purchase Robert Whitaker’s book, Anatomy of an Epidemic. This is a journalist who started out believing that psych meds were a miracle until his research proved differently.
He is still not totally anti psych meds but discusses programs in which they are used that have the best success.
Good luck
devan is a friend of mine. she is a marriage and family therapist, not a psychiatrist. she is not affiliated with any drug companies. she runs a private practice treating patients for all sorts of reasons using therapy (not sure the model, devan can answer if she wants). she knows Taz personally. she knows me very well. she has followed our struggle from the very beginning. and she does happen to know a lot about brain chemistry.
Amelia, Taz does not have RAD (reactive attachment disorder). i looked into it greatly and he does not match a few very significant symptoms that would indicate attachment disorder. professionals have agreed with this. as far as medicating a 4 year old being sick and wrong, i thought the same thing before parenting Taz. no mother goes into parenthood wanting to give their child medication. i never thought i would have to. i wasn’t prepared to parent a child like this, no one is. but when you see your child suffering and miserable, you do whatever you can to stop it.
i appreciate everyone’s effort in convincing me not to use medication with my son. and at one point even telling me about my own experiences with using medication to treat my bipolar. i think i would know if i had cognitive dulling. and i would know if my son had it as well. but he is more alive and happy than ever. and smarter than ever since he can now focus and learn.
as far as using cognitive therapy to treat mental illness, maybe it works with other people but it didn’t work for me. and i don’t have the years or decades to waste trying. i’d like to live my life thank you. and i’ll choose drugs for that any time. again, drugs interact with different people in different ways, so what may have given you dulling or a bad reaction doesn’t necessarily mean it does that to everyone.
but it’s pretty clear we are not going to agree on this subject.
p.s. if your mission truly is to reform parents into your belief that medication is not healthy for kids, you might want to use a more empathetic approach. try listening to their struggles. most of us are burnt out and exhausted. using whatever technique you would call this, you’re going to shut people out. you are sabotaging your own mission.
Stephany: I am curious as to why you don’t bring your daughter home? If pharmaceutical drugs are the problem, why not bring her home and take her off of them? She keeps telling you she wants to come home.
“p.s. if your mission truly is to reform parents into your belief that medication is not healthy for kids, you might want to use a more empathetic approach. try listening to their struggles. most of us are burnt out and exhausted. using whatever technique you would call this, you’re going to shut people out. you are sabotaging your own mission.”
If there is a “MISSION” to “REFORM” a corrupt and broken medical modality. It is not about coddling and trying to win converts (that’s the technique and method CABF, NAMI, and other like entities use just like drug reps).
I for one provide information and opinions based on real life results with an in your face honesty (what is that famous line I like so much? “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH”). If your looking a love fest it’s quite obvious your engaging the wrong person.
You have been informed of some disturbing and challenging information quite possibly for the first time. Now you can do your own investigation and research. In the end you choice if and when a drug is ingested by a four year old, and must then assume the full responsibility for those actions and results.
If you do need a false God to follow, you really need not apply with me thank you very much. Though you might try J. Biederman @ Harvard as a second in line to the throne option.
Switching Gears:
Meg, I happen to be curious also. I seen many comments you have left around the blog world.
Now If one took those comments at face value, it would appear you are anti drugging of children and astounded/disturbed by the massive corruption that permeates psychiatry and medicine.
Then in your own circumstance when “RYE” has any significant emotional incidents it’s a quick reach for sometimes Abilify and other times a Benzo.
You also say your concerned about possible seizure disorder while highlighting mood stabilizer drugs while at the same signing “RYE up for a Boxing club.
Then there was lesson and trip to an AA meeting experience using it as a teaching tool. Yet, when anything of emotional consequence happens you are teaching “RYE” relief comes in a pill bottle.
Maybe you can clarify these seemingly contrary positions for me. Of course you can always use the option of not choosing to respond and that will be respected also.
Stan,
I think you are making judgments based solely on some comments posted and what is posted on this blog – obviously not everything that goes on in our household is posted here.
So to say that “when anything of emotional consequence happens you are teaching “RYE” relief comes in a pill bottle.” is just not true. You may think that is the case based on the small amount of information you have – but it is not true. With Rye, he is given great freedom to feel his emotions and express them. When it reaches a breaking point for him and those in his life, we have to look at alternatives. Sometimes, he can just “work through it” and it will pass. However if there is a medication out there that would help him, we would really like to find it. None of the medications we have tried so far have worked – if you’ve been reading the blog, you know that Rye is no longer taking Abilify or a Benzo. We hoped they would help, and will continue to look at other medicines as an option.
And yes, I am very leery of these drugs as there are many horror stories about people using the “wrong” medications or having side effects/dependency issues that are worse than the original issue. And I do feel that too often people/children are excessively medicated.
- If we can get by without medications, that is our number one goal – but if there is a medication out there that really helps Rye, we will use it.
Don:
I thank you for your candid and honest response. I do honestly wish your family well, and that Rye has the opportunity to have a fruitful, full, happy, and successful life ahead of him.
Stan et al, as far as I recall I have never attacked you [or anyone] on the interent personally. You may find my comments around the web to be, in your opinion, contradictory. I say I am anti-med and yet I have used them and will use them again. And I’m ok with you being bothered with that. I’m not running for the hills or anywhere else. I don’t have to defend my parenting decisions or my philosophies to you. I have never even met you. What you won’t ever find is me personally attacking anyone or being mean or vindictive. I don’t assume I know what is right for everyone else or anyone else and that is where we differ.
Don and I are raising a child with some challenges. My son has a million friends and has a great life but he has challenges. All of his friends know he has challenges. Everyone who has ever dealt with him for any length of time knows he has challenges. It is no secret. We are doing the best we can to raise a happy, healthy, responsible, self supporting, moral and decent child, teen and eventual man. We open our hearts and our lives, albeit anonymously, to people in the world because we chose to. However, I don’t think it is fair for us to take on personal attacks. I own this site and all of its contents and I think I’ve had enough of it. If you and Stephany don’t like my parenting techniques or my parenting choices, that is your right to have that opinion. But on this site please express it respectfully or keep it to yourselves.
Don and I take full responsibility for Rye, including educating him ourselves. We take full responsibility for parenting him, guiding him and nurturing him and work extremely hard to keep him out of hospitals and other compromising situations. I don’t write about everything that happens in our lives but we have had many situations in which many other families would have hospitalized their child. Yet, we have not done it as we see it in our personal situation as doing more harm than good. And although I have talked about many meds on this site, Rye has actually been on meds maybe a total or 2 months in the last 12 months. He took the benzo 4 times total and he said he didn’t like it. We listened and he has never taken it since.
We have great respect for Rye. We value his opinion and listen to his needs. He never takes a med or anything else, for that matter, that he is not ok with. Rye has a great deal of say in his life and is given a great deal of trust. He is an incredible kid and we are extremely proud of him. We have no doubts that one day he will make a great husband and father. He just needs some guidance along the way, as all children and teens do.
This is the last time I will defend myself as a parent. Going forward, all personal attacks against me or anyone else on this site will be deleted. They have no part in a constructive conversation.
My GOD! I miss reading the blog for a couple days and lookee here, folks!! First, how about everybody take a deep breath? And then take a second one.
Everyone who has expressed an opinion here deserves respect, and obviously, each person who has done so has a passionate belief in their, well, passionate belief! Now its my turn to share some of mine–
First, John Best–sorry. The “mercury in vaccines” theory holds no water. Why do I say that? What is my proof? Simple. Those vaccines have been given since Jonas Salk and his life saving polio vaccine.(Before that actually, there were diptheria, typhoid and smallpox long before polio vaccines.) I am 48. I have children who range from 29 to 17. I have grandchildren aged 3 and 7 months. In my day, we did not have this “epidemic” of autism diagnoses. In my children’s day, we did not have such an epidemic. Only in this day do we have an epidemic. Think about the logic here. Its not the vaccines. If it were, how is it possible that they have been given for over fifty years, but its only NOW that we have an autism epidemic which some insist should be laid at the feet of vaccines?
Here’s my two cents–what HAS changed on that front is the speed at which they are given, the crazy combinations of vaccines, and the “extras” like chicken pox. THAT can perhaps be blamed for the results of an onslaught on a developing immune system, but the major vaccines are just the same as they have been for fifty years.
Now, as for medicating kids for mental disorders–currently, I have a son who is taking medication for hypertension. He is fit, strong, a competitive athlete, has a heart that is quote,”a picture of a perfect heart, matches the textbook exactly”. He has no renal issues, no circulatory issues,no diabetes, in short, no reason whatsoever for dangerous hypertension. And yet, if he were 40 years old, he would have been on medication within ten minutes of seeing a doctor. Since there are no factors whatsoever that explain this, we tried other things for a year. When it didnt work, cardio just didnt feel it was safe or prudent to not medicate so we did. What is my point? It wasnt so very long ago that the notion of medicating a child for hypertension was absurd, never considered, bad medicine. I am not a doctor, perhaps that is why children are being medicated now for mental illness that affects the quality of their life. And what is sounds like Taz is dealing with is certainly a cruddy quality of life for a four year old, pre medication.
Stan, you have your opinions and you are entitled to them. What you dont appear to have is a kid who needs help. I have a great nephew who at the age of 3 has been fighting cancer for a year. There are people who have told his young parents(not even 30, either one of them) that they are wrong for letting the “big pharma medical machine” poison their child with chemotherapy, that they should try holisitc and natural treatments and refuse to let “big medicince” kill their child. Guess what? None of those people have a kid with cancer. Its perhaps a little easier to stick to your convictions and beliefs from a distance.
There is one thing that I am certain about–one can not generalize about human beings. And to say that no child can possibly have mental illness and that medication is never to be used is a generalization.
Oh yea, and what’s this business of schizophrenia not being patholigical???
AA wrote:
“…I would also listen to Matt about working on the source of your son’s anger instead of being afraid of it. I know, you can’t do that when he is lashing out…”
If you want him to verbalize the thing, rather than him acting it out for you (which may be what’s happening), then the next time he gets angry it might be worth just saying, in a flat, toneless voice (voice tonality is very important – if you use an “angry” voice, you’ll escalate things, I think – try and use a tone that nothing can be read into), “I don’t understand; please tell me what the matter is.” He may be completely nonplussed, particularly if nobody’s ever asked him that, when he’s been in the middle of one of his “moments”.
It’s just not possible to calculate all the possible permutations, but if he doesn’t loop straight back into his pattern, then his next move would have to be to address himself to the question.
Matt
“Meg wrote:
Stephany: I am curious as to why you don’t bring your daughter home? If pharmaceutical drugs are the problem, why not bring her home and take her off of them? She keeps telling you she wants to come home.”
Because then there wouldn’t be someone or something else to blame. She would be responsible and it would blow her whole anti-psych position out of the water. Can’t have that. It always has to be the blame of someone else. It’s a pattern I’ve noticed.
She wanted to visit her dog, and is disabled and brain damaged from psychiatric drug use, as well as other body damages done via the doctors themselves.
Oh, yesterday I was here and posted a ‘run for the hills or whatnot’ comment, when i saw mine not be approved earlier.
Apparently, this triggered quite a wild discussion, GOOD, there needs to be one.
Wow, I tripped and fell on this blog, whoosh. I am sorry everyone is so angry. And so very misguided. It was interesting to read your comments. Boys and girls, mercury does not cause autism. There is no global warming either. Or aliens. Children used to be placed in insane asylums because they suffered without medication for so long. The rage that is spoken of above, I get. I have a child who is mentally unstable. Next time he steps on a pinecone and rages at the “pinecone” and cusses the “pinecone” out for 10 minutes (true story, there are witnesses), I am going to tell Mr. Pinecone to say to him “I don’t understand; please tell me what the matter is.” I’ll let you know how that goes. Guys, really, children can have mental disorders as well as physical ones, and thanks to the dedication and hard work of our medical professionals — there are medications that help. If my child was dxed with cancer, I’d be on the med train. Why is it so hard to believe that the most complex organ in the body (the brain) can’t be sick and in need of medication as well. God gave us the gift of science so we could cure people and help ease their pain and suffering. Stop picking on people who medicate their kids. Ya’ll are just mean.
PS– Suzanne, don’t worry I’ve got the guilt, the transparency and the knowledge, my daughter is now a product of a wrong diagnosis, and was also the recipient of being removed from the mental health system today after a decade of telling doctors they were wrong about her.
I won’t come back here after this, but wanted to get the word out, that my writings are about the truth behind the drugs approved for children and the truth behind the studies, false data and researchers that claim these products work while receiving pharma money on the side for promoting the drugs.
Take the time to work through my blog, you’ll see it is actually not anti-med, it is PRO TRUTH, and as a result of living with a child who was damaged by these drugs.
Omg, some of you people need to stop and draw breath! Take a chill people. Stan, I think you speak a load of crap. Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion and when Taz’s mum or anyone else states theirs you go and attack it!
I have bipolar, borderline personality disorder and depression. Medication has helped me. Without it I would have committed suicide. I could not function without it and yes I had tried counselling and therapy before I was medicated. Medication helps me get out of bed in the morning, it stops me from feeling the uncontrollable rage, the intense sadness, the feelings of wanting to kill myself. It stops my erratic behaviours to a point. And no it does not dull my cognitive feelings. I feel more alive with it.
And whoever made the comment about psychiatrists only treating conditions with drugs is obviously misinformed. I have encountered psychiatrists out there at refuse to medicate. So not all of them are bribed by drug companies etc.
Don’t you use medication to treat conditions like epilepsy? How is it any different? Medication saves lives. Why let a child or an adult suffer? Obviously all you anti meds ppl have never suffered from a mental illness. You have never felt the despair you feel. It is not a pleasant feeling when you withdraw from society and attempt to kill yourself. Depression, bipolar etc are horrible, horrible illnesses.
I would love to see how fast your minds change if you were ever to experience the hell of mental illness, be it yourself or your child, whom you would do anything for.
That is my rant. Taz’s mum, i think you are doing a fantastic job with Taz.
Oh and Stephany, now who is running for the hills ” I won’t come back here after this, but wanted to get the word out, that my writings are about the truth behind the drugs approved for children and the truth behind the studies, false data and researchers that claim these products work while receiving pharma money on the side for promoting the drugs.” Your doing the running now, because you cannot handle the truth.
I found this site by accident and it’s a breath of fresh air. People with lived experience and not caught up in the blame the meds, blame the pharamas and blame the doctors for what is an illness. I’ve seen so many people given their lives back to them because of medications.
I’m tired of the of the ungrateful and willfully blind shouting over the far majority of people who are just living their lives quietly and successfully because of good treatment.
Oh my, where to start. Warning – This will be a very long post.
-S-, I understand your rant but please don’t make assumptions about things because people don’t mention everything. Meg asked that of Stan which I thought was a fair point. I am asking that of you and people who feel similarly.
Actually, I have suffered depression due to dealing with a learning disability. And it isn’t been mild.
Stan and Stephany have mentioned various things that happened in their lives that would definitely cause a big time depression.
I sure would like to meet those psychiatrists who refuse to medicate because they aren’t in my area and I live in a big one.
When I was attended a support group of people who were mostly pro meds, they told me I was lucky that my psychiatrist was working with me to taper my meds. They felt most psychs in the area would not be willing to do that.
I am glad your medications are helping. Unfortunately, many people are hospitalized or die due to medication issues. I can google it if you want me to find the citation.
I have a relative who lived until 93 in spite of smoking for 30 years. I am convinced it is because this person took very few meds until the last years of her life.
Of course, causation doesn’t equal correlation. But you just don’t hear of people living until 93 who smoke that long.
Sherry, I agree with you about vaccines. I think the problems are due more to kids currently being given 3 times as much stuff as I got as a kid.
As far as chemotherapy, the issue is not big bad pharma vs. alternative meds. The issue is does chemo therapy work and I haven’t seen any stellar statistics that it does for most cancers.
I am convinced that there are alternative treatments that work but unfortunately, you have to be a big time medical expert to decipher the research and figure it out. And just like with regular medical treatments, there are going to be some duds.
When you’re life is at stake, that would be tough going against conventional medical experts.
To be honest, if I got cancer, in spite of my deep reservations about chemotherapy, I don’t honestly know if I would refuse it. Hopefully, I will never find out.
Taz’s Mom – Sorry if I came across as insensitive. I am doing with unemployment so perhaps that was reflected in my writings.
I wasn’t doubting what you were saying about not having side effects. Sorry if it came across differently.
All I was saying was that when I was on meds, I felt the same way as you did. But that changed pretty quickly and I was trying to say to be aware of that.
However, when things are going well, I certainly understand your reluctance to not change anything.
Stan and Stephany – Love your passion and your blogs and I feel so bad for the injustices you have suffered.
But we need to be respectful and I include myself as I say this. We’re not going to convert everyone. Even if we say one thing that makes someone rethink a particular issue, we’re succeeding.
At the same time, what purpose does it serve to criticize people for their lack of respect and then do the same thing in kind? Aren’t we all supposed to be working on being respectful toward each other?
I think we all need to follow Meg and Don’s examples as to how they handled the situation.
Which reminds me Don, you said if you could find a drug that worked with the inference being there wouldn’t be side effects, you would use it.
I said the same thing right before I made the decision to taper off of my meds. When the answer was it didn’t exist, I knew what I had to do.
A psychiatrist on his blog said that many patients keep hoping for better drugs. He says he has to remind them that isn’t going to happen. This is a guy who is not anti meds.
Thank you all for reading such a long post and thank you to Meg for giving us this forum. Let’s stay respectful so she doesn’t close off comments.
AA,
“I wasn’t doubting what you were saying about not having side effects. Sorry if it came across differently.”
it’s ok. you were perfectly civil in all your posts. i was just a little aggravated at the time i wrote it.
about psychiatrists who won’t perscribe meds, the first one we went to wouldn’t perscribe for Taz. he wanted to try therapy first, which i understand. but at the time Taz was literally only sleeping 3 to 4 hours a night for days on end. it wasn’t healthy. and nothing i did would help him sleep. certain music, aromatherapy, massage, baths, sleeping in the bedroom with him, nothing. we gave him melatonin (a natural approach) at our pedatricians advice and it worked for a little while but then stopped. we all were desperate for sleep. even my daughter (an infant at the time) wasn’t sleeping because Taz kept waking her up. so i didn’t continue with that psychiatrist because he wouldn’t acknowledge there was a problem.
i was also very concerned about the level of aggression we were seeing. again, he didn’t take it as seriously as we thought it should be. the second psychiatrist took it very seriously, as he did the sleep issue. he gaves us meds pretty quickly because he saw how chaotic and destructive our lives were getting. it is actually extremely unhealthy to be lacking sleep. it can not only cause mood and behavior issues, but physical illness as well. our psychiatrist always, always pushes therapy. actually, he asks every single visit (which is every 3 weeks) if Taz (and us) are going to therapy regularly. and we are.
Sherry, S, and Heather…thanks for sticking up for me! i know there’s lots of us out there, but i felt like the only one for a while.
and i knew a family that tried the mercury draining on their two twin autistic sons. all i saw was their sons becoming pale and sick. no difference in autism traits, not even a bit.
Heather wrote:
“…I am going to tell Mr. Pinecone to say to him “I don’t understand; please tell me what the matter is.””
That’s very funny. One day, you may realize that the fact that this sounds ridiculous to you is precisely the reason you should try it. If somebody’s angry, ask them to verbalize it, and then try to fix it. Sometimes, the very fact that you’re evidencing that you give a shit is enough.
I’ve told somebody else not to try to out-think me, and I’m going to tell you the same thing.
Matt
matthew, you have no idea how many times i have said to Taz, “i don’t understand, please tell me what’s wrong?” and i honestly don’t understand most of the time and i really DO want to know what’s wrong. most of the time he slams the door in my face. screams to leave him alone. or he just doesn’t answer.
cause he doesn’t know. he doesn’t know why his brain feels the way it does. how can we expect young children to understand and process these kinds of emotions that most adults can’t even figure out? i think a lot of his aggression and lashing out is because he feels bad inside and wants everyone else to feel bad too. if you were depressed and angry would you want to see everyone around you happy and perky?
anyway, if anyone truly knows what’s going on inside a child’s head, it’s his/her parents. right now we have a pretty effective system for working through his challenges. we give him lots of choices and lots of space and time to get through it. and we work with his sensory needs too, which helps. we seem to have a good balance right now between the meds doing their job (they take the edge off), therapeutic techniques, sensory, and just knowing our son. not many people can do it. most people are exhausted just watching us.
matthew,
every time taz has an outburst or a tantrum, when things calm down i talk to him about it. in a neutral way while we are doing things we like. i ask him, “remember when you were really mad before and you did such and such? what happened?”
i’m always surprised to hear the answer. usually it’s the simplest thing that got him upset. his sister looked at him. the dog didn’t want to play with him. he wanted to go outside and i said he had to wait 2 minutes. things like that. we always talk about other alternatives than screaming, throwing things, etc. and he says okay, he’ll do that next time. sometimes he does, most of the time he doesn’t. because when you are in a rage, all memory and reason exit and adrenaline takes over. that’s why kids who are raging are so much stronger and have more endurance during that time.
most of the time the medication slows him down enough that we can talk through things BEFORE he reacts. we can reason through problems a little better. he can be redirected. if he does rage, it’s shorter and less severe. now, gradually, we can talk through things more than ever before.
Matthew: Say what you need to say but please don’t threaten people or I will delete your comment. This isn’t a contest of out-thinking each other and there is no winner. It is a give and take conversation.
I see your supposed “attack” rule only applies to those that oppose drugging children.
That’s ok really, you can remove this comment also. We all now know your true colors, purpose, and soon to be revealed identity.
(not that it wasn’t suspected from your very first post @ FS)
Stay Tuned Folks, will the real “MEG” please stand up. -coming to a blog near you soon-
i’m confused too. and i don’t think i attacked anyone. i just stated my side of the story. i’m confident in who i am and what i’m doing. it’s usually the people who are so critical of others that are the ones the least secure in their views. at least in my experience. i’m more than happy to learn from other people, and this discussion has surely made me question taz’s options and treatment plans. as i’ve stated, i’m trying to taper down the risperdal but i am keeping the depakote. as i wrote on my blog, about this very topic, when Taz is old enough he will be able to make choices in his treatment. and if at that point, he wants to try med-free, i will support him. if at anytime i feel the meds are hurting him or making his symptoms worse, i will change things immediately.
matthew, would you mind telling me what your background is? i ask because you sound very inexperienced by way of working with challenging kids. you said that we should find out what’s wrong and fix it. that is extremely simplistic especially in dealing with very complex kids. and most of the time, there is no “fixing it”.
if your experience is mostly with typical children i can see how this approach would make sense in your mind. but that just ain’t the case with these kids. traditional parenting is useless with my son. and this is across the board. even in preschool they can’t handle him the same way as other kids. if you are interested in learning more about how to help these kind of kids (and giving out advice), i would implore you to listen first. listen to the parents, the teachers, the children themselves.
OK, new here, so I dug around and I am finding out some scary stuff. I think I see what is going on here. Let me take a crack at this, bear with me.
There are some pretty angry folks up there… see above. Why? Because some of us parents are trying to care for mentally ill children, and we would do anything, and I mean anything, to bring peace and happiness into their worlds. It’s not about getting the quick fix, “medicate so I don’t have to deal with it. Medicate him– I don’t have time for this!” When your child is sick, you know it in your heart. There’s normal kid stuff – tantrums and what not, so you read the books, try the herbal/food route, play therapy, time. Lots of time. Lot’s of trying to understand what’s going on in that little head. But one night, after your child has raged for three straight hours… “Impulsive aggression (rage) is characterized as reflecting a “hair trigger” response that results in an agitated state and culminates in an aggressive act. During this brief (or not so brief– that’s my kid) episode, interpersonal communication and information processing are both inefficient.” … yes raged three hours, attacked his siblings, thrown screwdrivers at my head… really, I could go on and on. So that night, after he finally passes out from exhaustion, I go throw up several times because I am mortified at what just happened. Terrified. Scared to death. For me and my husband? No. For my other kids? No, they are resilient. For my son. Because I love him and want him to have a normal life. To be at peace. He was not at peace. His mind was a storm. A tornado, he could not control. There are chemical imbalances, seizures in the mind. I know you’ve done the research. Lord knows I have logged in enough hours to have an MD after my name. Medication HELPED him, it helped our family heal.
Ahhh… but here’s the catch.
I also grew up in a loving family, not without issues, divorce and the lot. There were no major mental or physical issues – no disease or disorder that wasn’t fixed by a baby aspirin, or my dad having a gin and tonic while he sat and watched Andy Griffith with us. I am thankful for that. Because of that, I felt loved. So I can give love in return. I am sorry, so very, truly sorry that there are so many people who are so angry and so resentful and have so much pain. To all of you, I am so sorry if you did not feel loved as a child. I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything off-color here, and I hope I don’t incite a riot, because I really do not want that. Maybe, when you step back and look at YOUR lives, you will realize that no one can change what happened in your past. You can change your life now, though – if you want to. If you want to be happy – you have to do it yourself now. And if you get sick and need someone to take care of you, I hope you have someone in your life now who will.
My son will have a past. I am helping him create it… here in the present. I care for my son because I CAN. I am taking care of my son, because he can NOT. This is the beginning of his life, and I will do whatever it takes to make his life good. I hope some day he can look back and see that. He will always know this, if only because I tell him 800 times a day… I love him.
Meg wrote:
“…Say what you need to say but please don’t threaten people or I will delete your comment.”
I threatened nobody. I stated one of my rules of engagement, that’s all. If you wish to perceive that as a threat, then that would be your choice. Moreover, Heather decided to deride my suggestion, when I know it to work – I’ve tested it. I have derided nobody, although if you validate Heather by refusing to pull her up on her comment, then I will perceive that it is open season, in that limited respect.
To Taz’s Mama: I am a challenging child. I suggested what I did, because that is what I would like somebody to say to me.
Matt
Taz’s Mama, you were fine in my opinion.
Here is what comes across as mean spirited even if it wasn’t the writers intention.
Accusing someone of not being able to handle the truth.
Calling folks mean outright
Accusing people of blaming the professionals for an illness when you don’t know what the situation is which ironically you accused the other side of doing. Which was commenting on something they didn’t know anything about.
I understand when you feel you have attacked to lash out in return. But one wrong doesn’t justify another one.
Regarding your previous comments, I do understand the issue of insomnia as that has been one of my withdrawal symptoms. Fortunately, it has been improved although it certainly isn’t stellar.
When you do decide to go meds free, make sure you taper very slowly. I can’t stress that enough.
In spite of my difficulties, they would have been a whole lot worse if I had tapered too quickly.
Matthew: Your rules of engagement only apply to your blog. This is my blog.
Taz’s Mama wrote:
“…usually it’s the simplest thing that got him upset…”
Yes. There is a common thread running through the events that you mention, but I’ll come back to that.
I wouldn’t wait for him to calm down, although I understand the difficulty of trying to rationalize when he’s “raging”. Of course, this will become more difficult, as he gets bigger. Is there a way in which you can get him to revisit the event, when he’s in a calmer state (rather than have him visit it as a historic event)? Be careful, because you don’t want to trigger him, such that he actually revisits the thing in full effect…
Hmmm. This is more complex than I’d realized, at first glance. He needs to be able to dissociate himself; put some distance between him and the trigger event. You know how some people are massively phobic of spiders or snakes? Sometimes, they can trace that fear back to a single incident, or at least they’ve fixed their fear on a particular incident, usually in their childhoods. It may be that something similar has happened with Taz, but rather than do the foaming at the mouth terror that some phobics do, he displays extreme anger (and for all we know, that might be a completely appropriate response).
OK, this is getting too complicated… Fix on the objective, and make it a positive thing for Taz. So, next time you talk to him (when he’s calmed down), suggest that the goal is to have him feel completely relaxed about the type of things that have caused him a problem, hitherto. At the moment, so strong is the stimuli, he’s probably not even aware that the choice of how to react is entirely his. It might be worth allowing him to see that.
Matt
I don’t understand people who post on these blogs who want to tell other people what to do. How could you tell people what they should do or think when you barely know anything about them? Personally I get the most out of hearing other people’s stories and how they got through things (or didn’t). What they tried, how things worked out, and what ended up happening. Then I can take that information and use that in my own life. Some stranger who thinks they’ve got it all figured out about someone else or their child, doesn’t really seem all that helpful.
Just my opinion.
Matthew, that’s certainly an interesting approach and seems like it could work at some point for some kids. but my son is only four. what you’ve described i think might be a little too abstract for him. at this point he has very limited expression of feelings and events.
you said you were a challenging child. did you mean that literally? as in, you are a child right now? or that you WERE a challenging child?
like someone said, there are a lot of kids out there with anger issues, with impulse control issues, who are defiant or strong-willed or whatever you want to call it. but i’m (and others) are talking about a very sick child. and i hate to use that term. but it’s much different than just a child who challenges authority. do you know what i mean?
Matthew being a difficult kid in the past and raising a complicated, mentally ill kid now are two very different experiences. Taz’s mom asked about your experience in working with difficult kids. I’m curious as well. When have you applied this technique and seen it be successful? I’m a marriage and family therapist and I’m always interested in what people are doing that works, so enlighten me.
Taz’s Mama wrote:
“…you said you were a challenging child. did you mean that literally?..”
Well, I’m an adult, legally-speaking, so I suppose that most would say that I was speaking figuratively. However, if you’ve ever read Penny Parks’ work on Inner Child Therapy, one begins to wonder how “mature” any of us are!
Four years old? That makes things easier, in a way, because you’re in no physical danger, if you attempt to interrupt him. I have a theory (I have many theories!), and it’s that one tends to assimilate what is around one. If one is angry, and one is met with anger, then one will become angrier still. But try being angry with somebody who’s completely peaceful – can you imagine being angry with the Dali Lama? The point is that if you stay completely pacific while Taz is angry, then he’ll get drawn into your reality (or he’ll merge his thoughts with yours, depending upon how you look at it). You might also kneel in front of him, so that your eyes are on a level and say “It’s OK: nothing’s happened.” Or something that communicates that there’s no cause for alarm, anyway. And if he wants to talk, then keep talking, and keep talking until he’s got a smile on his face.
Devan wrote:
“so enlighten me.”
Riiiiigggghhht. Orders, huh? Go whistle.
Devan. I wanted to respond to your question about working with difficult kids as I worked with students with autism, mental retardation and downs syndrome.
One day when we were out in the field, a student with autism had a meltdown. I was desperate for solutions and then it occurred to me to apologize to him for upsetting his routine. My co-worker and I made a mistake that led to a change in plans which triggered the crisis.
He calmed down immediately. I realize that isn’t quite what Matthew is talking about but I think what he means if I am interpreting correctly is that sometimes out of the box solutions are needed.
I am not being critical when I say this by the way. I realize some kids are so hard to deal with that not much of anything is going to work.
Anyway, I don’t think other stuff members would have apologized to the student in that situation.
Wheeewhhh, how’s that?! I’m assuming then that you don’t work with difficult children and the only experience you have to speak from is your own life experience and what you wish someone had done for you.
Speaking from your own pain can be cool and inspiring to others, however in this case it appears the parents that are raising these children find it a little too simple to be true.
I forgot to mention that in that special ed job, I was attacked by students so I am have a sense of what parents have experienced.
And before anyone says anything, I realize that dealing with them 8 hours a day is different from dealing with them 24 hours a day.
But I am sensing that folks thought that people like me have no clue what it is like to deal with difficult kids. And I am pointing out my experiences.
By the way, I didn’t leave the job because of the kids. It was due to the administration as is typical of alot of education jobs.
AA,
it does sound like you have a lot of insight to offer the kids you work with. i, too, worked with difficult kids before having one of my own. i used to work at a therapeutic school for kids with behavior and emotional disorders (like bipolar for example) and thought my experience would prepare for parenthood.
not even close! although it was helpful because i knew my kid wasn’t the only one out there having these difficulties. and it taught me to remain calm and neutral (as matthew pointed out and is a very good suggestion).
the problem is, school life and home life are very very different. for instance, in school there is a very clear schedule. the teachers and aides are completely focused on the children. there are specific rules and structured programs put in place for the children. any outbursts or frustration can be dealt with immediately because that is what the staff are trained to do.
as ideal as that is, it is impossible to replicate at home (without a lot of family or other hired staff support). at home, parents need to cook dinner and wash dishes. they often need to attend to other children they have. siblings deserve the parents attention too. there are phone calls to make, laundry to get done, shopping trips to be had. there aren’t always a plethora of engaging activities for a child to engage in because parents are tired or siblings need attention or what have you. it’s not always possible to keep the same routine because life is…well, life. and it’s unpredictable.
a lot of these challenging kids to better at schools and hospitals because of this ultra-structured setting. some don’t. some respond to the stress of having to perform worse than a more relaxed atmosphere at home.
working with these kids professional made me feel like i could handle everything. boy was i wrong!
that being said, there is something to benefit from an outsiders opinion. which is why an in-home program can be appropriate. especially if the parents are so frustrated and fed up with the child. it’s good to have someone objective looking at the situation.
oh, i quit my job working with these kids too because of administration so i know what you mean.
Heather: I unapproved a couple of your posts because you put ‘do not post’ on the one but if you want me to put them back in I can – once you are an approved poster I don’t see the post until after it is published so I can’t moderate it before it publishes
Devan wrote:
“Wheeewhhh, how’s that?! I’m assuming then that you don’t work with difficult children and the only experience you have to speak from is your own life experience and what you wish someone had done for you…”
Was that for me, or AA? In any event, I would assume nothing, if I were you – it’s likely to lead you astray.
There are no objective solutions, as AA (and Taz’s Mama suggested). One plays things by ear, and learns to be flexible, at least initially. The only expert in a child’s issues is the child, because the child is the only person who has lived through them and understands the whole picture intimately.
If I have a suggestion for you, it is to treat what people have to say with less skepticism – that sort of approach tends to encourage a defensive response.
Oh, you asked what my experience was in dealing with aggressive behaviour, or something of that nature? Well, it’s having my “wacky” ideas attacked out-of-hand for the past forty years.
You see, it doesn’t matter what I say, or how absurd my suggestions seem (although I happen to believe that they work), because I know that if I pick on something from a person’s previous speech (or comment, as is the case, here), and keep the discussion going, eventually they will run out of attacks, and we’ll come to some kind of agreement. Which is the point. Isn’t it?
Matt
I am closing the comments for this post. The discussion is no longer productive.
Great info, thanks for useful post. I am waiting for more